Professor Nura Alkali is a former Vice-Chanchellor of the University of Maiduguri, as well as a former Director-General of the Nigeria Institute of Policy and Strategic Studies, Kuru, Jos.
An historian, he was member of the Presidential Committee on Dialogue and Peaceful Resolution of Security Challenges in the North, which submitted its report to President Goodluck Jonathan a fortnight ago. In this interview, Professor Alkali gave an insight into the encounter between the committee and Boko Haram leaders.
In the paper you presented when President Jonathan visited Borno in May this year, you called for dialogue and amnesty for Boko Haram. Incidentally, when a committee was eventually raised in that direction you were on the committee. How do you feel about being on the panel?
Well, I must say that first, I accepted the invitation to serve on the committee because, having said all that I have said and having been seriously concerned about the situation on ground, it would make no sense if I did not participate in the committee on the dialogue and do the little I know I can contribute through the committee’s work to help us out of the situation. So that was why I accepted to join the committee and, at the same time, I’m a very strong believer in dialogue and peaceful resolution of conflict. At the end of it all, some of us who advocated for dialogue and amnesty have been vindicated by the outcome of the exercise. With dialogue many of Boko Haram sect members renounced their membership of the group.
While on the committee how was your initial impression of Boko Haram altered?
I must confess that it was very successful and fruitful assignment, from the way I saw it. Our success on the job was as a result of the procedure we followed, it was very good. We all agreed that we should begin from a ground zero. Let us learn and have some knowledge of what the situation is. We agreed that we would not assume we knew everything. So we took time to study past reports, other literatures and information that we gathered in the media and so on. We then travelled round to see things for ourselves while doing the work. This gave us the opportunity to learn what the whole thing was and our interactions have helped in the resolution of the conflict. This, really, I must say assisted us a lot.
What would you say was the high point of the investigation you did on the conflict?
When we started, there was a lot of skepticism. Many people said it was not easy to meet with the insurgents. They believed there was nothing on ground because these people were seen as ghosts. But fortunately, we found some of the detention camps and prisons where some of the people alleged to be involved in the conflict are being held. We started talking to them and so many things began to come out. There, they told us what to look for, who to look for, how to communicate to them and where to find them. They said well, you look for Mr. so, so and so. He is in one of the prisons. They told us how to go and look for some of the key members of the sect, and in this way, we were able to reach them. I must confess that the security agents whom we interacted with before starting the work helped us a lot by giving us useful information. They cooperated with us and the information they gave to us helped us to take-off successfully. So, the high point I must say was when we started seeing some detainees and started asking them questions. We went to many places. The prisons, both the medium and maximum Kirikiri prisons in Lagos. We went to the prisons in all the places we visited in the country. We even went to places that have been destroyed. We met the victims and when we saw their conditions we immediately recommended to the president that there were certain people like women and children there who might have been caught in the cross fire and so on. We asked for their release from detention and set the motion for judicial process. We reasoned that the release of the women and children would help the dialogue process because when people see or hear that so, so and so persons have been released it would boost the dialogue and peaceful resolution of the crisis.
But after Shekau’s wife and some of his family members were released the sect still continued to fight?
Yes, they continued to fight but it encouraged other people who are outside the detention to reason that the government meant well, so they agreed to come forward and appear before the committee. The fear that they might be arrested was no longer there, and they continued to come to appear before us. They told us what they knew. The key members of the sect actually came. We met with them through a special contact of the committee whose responsibility it was to talk to these people and they were never tired of listening to us. There was no misunderstanding, no conflict they just listened. I think that really helped us a lot.
What about this issue: when the chairman of the committee would say I have spoken with Boko Haram leaders and Shekau would come out to say it’s not true. How are you sure the people you spoke to were real members of the sect?
We were very sure that those who interacted with us and those who have listened to the argument and reasoning of the scholars in our committee came to be convinced they were on the wrong path. Many of them never went back to it again and we also knew that those who had come in contact with us were never the same Boko Haram people again. Not only that, we knew that some of them have been reaching out to some other members because we encouraged them to talk to others so as to pull them out of it. There was evidence of this. You see, there may be denial here and there because the situation was allowed to take too long before dialogue started. If it was when they were at their formative stage and they had not gone too far that this process started they wouldn’t have gone this far. But for us to have even achieved that and pulled them back at that point, I think it was great.
What were the kinds of teachings that encouraged young people to join Boko Haram?
When somebody tells you the end of the world has come and all the signs of the end time have started to manifest themselves and you should get prepared to go to heaven, you would do whatever he urges you to do. They brainwashed the young men by saying that if they died fighting they would go to heaven and all that. We had to tell them there was nothing like that. If you kill someone and you think you are going to heaven, it’s a lie, you are wasting your time. If you kill someone or you kill yourself you are going to be punished for it. There are verses in the Qur’an and Hadith in this regard. They (Boko Haram sect members) brought books so that we could compare. So the scholars in the committee were able to produce volumes and volumes of books to show them what have been falsified and to show they were not on the right path. They sat down to view these books chapter by chapter, paragraph by paragraph and in this way we were able to convince a large number of them that they were on the wrong side.
Did they tell you they were promised seven virgins in heaven if they died in the struggle?
I’m sure they might have mentioned it when our contact committee members were interacting with them, because what we did was to divide ourselves into three subcommittees. The contact committee consisted of learned Islamic scholars, who helped to contact these people. Some of us were working on the victims support programme, while some were working in the other subcommittees. But I’m sure the contact committee raised this issue with them. Each time they discussed with them, they reported to the larger committee and the larger committee would deliberate on them. I think the procedure was very good. Many of those we spoke with at the end agreed they were misled and they confessed that after what they had heard and seen they realised that they were misled and would not go back to Boko Haram activities.
During your meeting with the sect members, what particular experience would you say made you to be convinced that they were remorseful and would not engage in violence any longer?
When, after listening to what you said, somebody begins to shed tears, not because of his condition then but because of the situation that brought him into this you know he is remorseful. They would say they had discovered that they were misled and saying had they known they wouldn’t have joined sect. We knew that from what they were telling us they were people in the forefront of the sect. I think the only way we can prove this was when they could walk straight to us, sit down with us, speak with us and asked for books and evidence and we provided them and they found out that they were on the wrong side, to the extent that some of them were shedding tears.
When you spoke to them about the destruction of some cities in Borno and Yobe where people are no longer living in now, what was there reaction?
When we asked some of them that we met in the maximum and medium Kirikiri prisons whether they knew how cities like Mairi or Gwange in Maiduguri were before the bomb blasts and other destructions they had carried out which wrecked the cities, about the death of innocent people caused by them and how these places are now like grave yards, you could see on them vividly that they regretted what they had done, and they were even shedding tears. I think right inside them, they were feeling the pain. Gwanje and Mairi are one of the busiest parts of Maiduguri but because of the killings you cannot find a single soul there now. These places have been deserted because of Boko Haram activities in the areas. This really made them very remorseful.
From you interactions with them, is there any evidence that the sect is an offshoot of Maitasine?
I don’t think the doctrine of Boko Haram is the same with that of Maitasine. I know Maitasine have their doctrine in the way they understand and interpret the Qur’an. Even inside the Maitasine enclave there is a doctrinal argument going on. No one knows what is going on or the motive behind the destruction of schools and even mosques by Boko Haram. All we hear are what people think they have been saying, like they want to create their own country, their own states, Islamic schools, the Shar’iah and so on. Apart from people saying they heard Shekau on video saying, ‘put democracy aside, put constitution aside and let’s begin negotiation,’ I haven’t got any evidence, I must confessed. This is a modern day of technology, people can do anything.
Why were your contact committee unable to reach Shekau?
I think if this dialogue thing had continued we would have gone close to determine where the man lived and possibly getting close to meeting him. There were assumptions he was in Chad, he was in this place, he was in that place, but if the dialogue had continued, we possibly would have known where he lived. But our resolve was that let there be continuity in this dialogue. Not necessarily by the same committee, but a permanent body that would make the dialogue a permanent thing. I’m sure if that could be done in a sensible and reasonable manner one day we would get to the root of the whole situation. Even Shekau, when he started talking about the committee and denying some of his men appearing before us, he seemed to have come as close as to acknowledging what the committee was doing. But I think we were getting as close as resolving the mystery surrounding him and the whole thing.
There is this hypothesis that Shekau may just be anybody. From your contacts were you able to establish whether he really exists?
From what we got from our informants the man existed. They considered him their leader and some of them believed he could perform miracles and something like that. But not all of them. Some of those who renounced the sect and accepted they had been misled no longer believe in all these mystic about him. When we were looking at the hierarchy of the sect from Muhammed Yusuf, as their past leader, Shekau didn’t even feature. And in another place where his name featured it was at the down, down in their hierarchy. In an attempt to create a mystery about himself as leader of Boko Haram, people being mobilized to go and destroy, commit suicide and things like that, so as to establish his authority as their leader. At this stage, it would be difficult to conclude that Shekau never existed. There are lots of unanswered questions about him, but I think he existed. However, from the way some of the sect members responded to us, even in the manner some of them voluntarily walked up to us and when they were convinced they were on the wrong side, they renounced their membership. It means there could be an end to the whole thing. When Maitasine started its own, they did it in Kano, Maiduguri , Bauchi and Yola. I had the opportunity of going round these places to conduct a research on it. Now all those that were part of the Maitasine are no longer visible; we don’t see them again and we don’t hear them preaching anywhere again. They had some doctrines based on the misinterpretation of the Qur’an. They misinterpreted it based on their understanding and needs. Maitasine has fizzle out, and this one, too, with time, will fizzle out, provided that our recommendations are seriously implemented.
What are some of these recommendations, because only few were mentioned when the report was presented to the president?
I cannot talk about the recommendations now because of the security implications. It’s before the president and the Security Council. So it’s not fair to talk about them now. More so, the chairman of the committee discussed some of them while presenting it. The most important part of it, and which Mr President has made public, is that which says the process of dialogue should continue permanently. I think that is very important. Not necessarily the committee, there are already a body of security agencies that were involved in the dialogue, and other people who have contacts with the sect and they meet regularly to discuss the way out of this thing. I think I’m very satisfied with the way we did it.
Your committee recommended compensation for the victims of Boko Haram, but the President has ruled it out in the peace process. How do you feel about this?
Yes, I heard the President saying that. Even before the committee was set up, I was one of the people advocating for compensation for the victims. But my reason for that is that it would help. Whatever you call it, be it compensation or victims support. I think what he is running away from is to go and begin to assess the houses that were destroyed, cost them and pay or somebody has died and you have to pay the family members and things like that. I think these are some of the things the President is objecting to. What he has been saying, if I read his mind correctly, is about victim support; that those who suffered from the insurgency, by way of losing someone or destruction of their homes, will be reintegrated into the community and will be made to live normal and comfortable lives. How this is going to look like is left for Mr. President and the government to decide.
While you engaged in dialogue, the army was busy attacking and rounding up the sect’s fighters. How did the activities of JTF affect the confidence of the sect members you were meeting with?
I must say that we had a very good cooperation with the security agents. All the places we went to, they received us, they briefed us and told us the situation on ground; what constraints they had; what assistance they needed, and so on and so forth. What we were telling the sect members was that if they renounced their membership of Boko Haram, csme and settled down as normal members of the society, nobody would touch them. But as long as they took up their arms to fight, government would not just fold its arms and watch them. If they wanted to fight, government would fight them, but we have nothing to do with the use of force. We only had the task of talking to them to get out of this horrible thing. We suspected that those who were fighting when the discussion was going on might not be from any part of the country. There are many warlords from our neighbouring countries among them. They tried to take over governments, so they are displaced. Then, they crossed over to Nigeria and they are being used as mercenaries and so on. Now, these are not the kind of people we condone or dialogue with. If they have come to fight us, they must face the force at our disposal.
Did some of the sect members claim they were sponsored by politicians?
Well, you see, in all forms of conflicts there are various sides to it. There are people who come in because of some political issues; there are some who come in because of ethno-religious factors and so on. Even the Jihad of Usman Dan Fodio, historians have classified it into religious, political, social and economic . Dan Fodio is the philosopher of the Jihad, but cattle Fulani resented the tax so they joined the conflict. The other Fulani who were more scholarly joined to take over power from this other group. So I believe that in every conflict there may be some interest groups who may join it for some reasons -political, economic, religious or social. It’s very difficult to draw a clear line between these various interest groups. It may start as a religious thing, others may come and use it to launch their interests. But we did not uncover direct political involvement in it. A lot has been reported about some people sponsoring Boko Haram, its members living with politicians or politicians sponsoring them to do one thing or the other, but I haven’t got evidence that this Boko Haram thing is political or politicians are using it to get whatever. I haven’t got that evidence.
Did your committee recommend possible freedom for those who renounced their membership of Boko Haram?
No, we didn’t do it like that. We recommended that some processes be followed. If somebody has committed a crime like arson or murder, he has to be investigated and some kind of penalty be applied. But people who are being detained. Some of them said they were taken before the courts and were discharged, but something has to happen somewhere, like the public prosecuting officer and the police have to certified and clear them before they are discharged. The process is going on. Once they are found innocent they are discharged after going through the process.
What did the committee recommend for those who are in jail but have decided they won’t do this thing again?
Once they renounce and are not found wanting of any involvement with the sect again they will be allowed to integrate into their communities and live a normal life.
Did you meet a significant number of the sect members or just few of them?
You see, there is a situation where if you get one person he can tell you it’s Mr. X that is in charge of this or that, and if you speak with him he will speak with that person who may also speak with so, so and so. Quite a number of those who have renounced and have left are also talking with their fellow members that they were out of it. I believe this was why we are experience some relative calm now. When last did you hear any bomb blast in Abuja, Kano or Kaduna? It seems they are just packing and moving out. I was in Maiduguri for eight days and I didn’t hear a single bomb blast in any part of the state; no single gunshot. I drove my car round up to 9.00pm and I came back without being molested, except for the ‘Civilian JTF’ who would stop you, ask you to open the bonnet and boot of your car and they will pass you. You know, they know the real hideouts of the Boko Haram members. They can go and pick them up so they dare not come to Maiduguri because if they come they will be grabbed. Click to signup for FREE news updates, latest information and hottest gists everyday
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great work. good report, good interview. I can see the fruit of your labour is becoming evident by reduction in the occurence of boko haram insurgence in Nigeria.
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